Hey,

I've been running around and around in my head about a topic I've come across. Now, most of you don't know me very well, but I struggle a lot with women (dating/friendship) on a basis that my social life with women is non-existant at the moment.

Here's the topic. I read in a list of "10 things men do to screw up dating relationships with women". The number 10 reason is Being Too Nice. Ok, so naturally I'm a nice guy. I treat people with respect (men and women), I like to take time for other people when asked of me or when I feel like volunteering. I basically would put my life on hold for a brief moment to help someone in need... someone who needs a friend.

On a date, I would buy her meal, hold a door open for her, compliment her (NOT TOO MUCH, once... maybe twice during the whole evening.) Do the classic gentleman type of things.

Now when it comes to women, I can see where some of this might come across as being too nice. But, when I get the sense that I'm being too nice, I try every now and then to be a jerk. Mostly its just playful poking and teasing, but when something really irritates me that a girl that I know in my life does, if I get xxxxxx in anyway, it makes no difference whatsover in the relationship. It actually ends it right then and there. For example, earlier tonight I received an email from a friend of mine (female friend) saying she was sorry that she hasn't returned my calls (which were about a month ago that I called.. i just gave up on her). My question is, should I just let it roll off my back and say, "It's ok." OR should let her know how I feel that its taken her this long to get back with me AND that it wasn't a phone call like it should have been!! My dilemma is this: if I go for being "nice" about it, it won't change our relationship. It'll stay exactly right where it is. Me calling her up occassionally, and she never calling me up, and occassionally calling me back. If I get xxxxxx about the situation, she will probably never speak to me again. She won't feel bad, she'll just wait for me to get over it.

The only reason I am assuming these two outcome is because these are the same exact outcomes that have happened with 11 potential other women in my life. I'm too nice about something, the relationship doesn't grow, even when I make several attempts at doing so. I become the jerk, they never speak to me again. Am I missing something? What should I do? I'm confused, frustrated, angry, and alone all at the same time!!

I know my last post seemed confusing. After reading it myself, I was a bit confused on some parts. I pretty much rushed the whole thing. If anyone is confused reading this post and trying to make sense of things, ask me here to clarify or email me. I'll do my best to explain things better. I'm so tense right now that my brain isn't working right!! :*(

something isn't adding up. You seem like a nice guy and you are doing all of the right things. You say, however that women seem to become distant and don't return your calls in a courteous manner. Are you saying also, that you have gotten angry with all 11 previous dates that have treated you this way? I can tell you that anger is a turn off. No woman or man likes someone angry at them. Nor do they appreciate being told that they are being rude. I don't know of any woman that doesn't appreciate gentlemanly conduct and nice treatment. Could it be that there is something else you are doing that is preventing the relationships from bloosoming or going forward? Have you tried asking a friend of the female persuasion if there is something you are doing or saying that is a turn off. Do you have a personal habit that you don't know about that is a turn off perhaps. I would be happy to help but you need to fill in a few more blanks. Or perhaps you do have a female friend that is more like a sister who could be brutaly honest with you.

Maybe it would help if we added links to your previous threads here:

Getting her to laugh.
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthread...7885#Post247885

Dilemma
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthread...7491#Post247491

Married for Love?
http://www.wineintro.com/forum/ubbthread...2191#Post332191

Joe, I notice that on another thread you stated that I seemed to be saying the same things that your friends were saying.

Maybe you are trying too hard, or maybe there is some little thing about you, that you are not aware of, that may be causing an obstacle to relationships.

May I suggest counselling.
A counsellor can give you feedback on your behaviour and personality and can give you advice on relationships.

You sound like a very pleasant person, who needs help from someone, who can talk to you honestly and pick up on anything that girls might find off-putting.

It may just be that you seem to be trying too hard and expecting others to try as hard as you do.

Life isn't that simple, though.

What do you think?

Good luck!

Now that could just confuse and irritate someone.

I'll try to give you some honest feedback, so please don't be offended.

From my point of view, I like people to be courteous & friendly, but being over-polite, to the point of being obsequious, would make me feel very uncomfortable indeed and probably irritated, too.

If someone made me feel uncomfortable in this way, and then started 'playful poking and teasing', I would become yet more irritated and even annoyed ~ wondering what they were up to.

If this person later phoned me and left a message, I might not feel inclined to call back.

However, some time later, I might think that the person is basically very nice & meant well, but was probably nervous at the time. I might then get back in touch with them, rather than allow them to think that I disliked them, etc.

If the person then became irritated and angry with me, I would assume that I should probably not have bothered to e-mail them.

Does this ring true, perhaps?



It depends on what you want.

Do you want to keep this casual friendship going or not?

If you think that this girl is not nice and genuine, then maybe you don't mind losing her.

But if she is nice, and you don't have many friends, maybe she is very valuable to you.

Maybe it is annoying that it took so long to get back to you, but maybe she's been away, or ill, or busy, or had family commitments, etc. Maybe she had a boyfriend, even.

If you feel that you need to say something about how long it has taken, then do so, but beware of the effect that it might have.

As for saying 'it wasn't a phone call like it should have been!!' ~ well, I'm afraid I don't agree with you. You cannot tell other people what they should do. There is no rule to say that she has to use a telephone rather than e-mail to contact you. There is no rule to say that she had to contact you at all.

Are you, perhaps, expecting too much of others and imposing rigid rules on yourself and on them?

Good luck

yes I agree with PDM on the e-mail thing. However, is it possible she lost your number, or forgot it? It's happened to me before and I just IM or e-mail the person however I know to get in touch. And sometimes people find it easier to type how the feel and say what they want.
Goodluck!

joandboys, you hit the nail on the head. It doesn't add up!! I know this seems odd, but THANK YOU for realizing that. Not a single person has looked at it from my perspective and said.. 'hmmm.. there's something not right going on here.' See, I've observed my friends/peers for years... both guys and girls. I watch how they behave among one another; how they interact. Now don't assume I'm sitting on the sidelines watching. My observations come from interacting as well. All of my guy friends have girls in their life that some would call them up to hang out. Just to put this in a nutshell, when it comes to phone conversations, instant messaging, text messaging, going to hang out, making plans to go on trips, etc (you know, just being friends... doing friend things.), both the guys and the girls make efforts amongst each other. The guys call up the girls, the girls call up the guys. My dilemma incurs only myself making the effort. With my guy friends its no problem. BUT with the women, I'm constantly making the effort. Maybe I am trying too hard... maybe I'm not. No effort is made on my behalf. What doesn't add up here also is that I will quit making any sort of effort all together. Will I hear from them in a couple of weeks? No. Most of the time, I won't hear from anyone is years.

I've even had my guy friends to help out on certain things. For instance, when one of previous roommates female friends would call while he was out asking to come hang out, I got him to tell her, "hey Jon's over at the apt, go hang with him for a bit and I'll be there later." Never got a positive response from that. Heck, when one would just show up while my roommate was out for a few minutes at the store, I would say, "hey, he's only going to be gone five minutes, you're more than welcome to come in and wait." That hasn't worked either. They give me some excuse to not want to stay and wait for five minutes. Is the excuse legitimate?? Probably... probably not. I can't get ticked off because I don't know if its something they have to do, or if its just an excuse because they don't want to hang out with me. And let me also point, that these are girls who I have met in a group with my guy friends, I do try to get to know them, converse with them, tell them a little something about myself... whether they ask or not. So it's not like these girls don't know a little about me. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong, maybe its something I'm not doing at all. I can't figure it out!

It definitely seems to be a problem.

Maybe you're trying to analyze it too much, and making expectations of how others are to act. Try being a friend to others and be there for them.

Also, I think that the central thing for you right now is to be real with yourself. Give yourself a break - and some time. But don't be afraid of starting new paths.

I'm going to have to argue with you on this one PDM. First off, I will say, you're right that there is no rule. Common courtesy has no rules also. It's just guidelines we've created over the years and they change. It's not something you find written in stone or in the law books. Ok, look at it from your end. What if you had someone, a friend, that you called occassionally to talk too. This person would NEVER call unless it was call back from a missed call from you. And even sometimes that was occassional. Then, that person started returning your calls, NOT with phone calls, but apology emails. Frankly, I think, I would be a little peeved at this person myself.

And also, expecting too much? PDM, I'm just asking for a phone call. How hard is that? I'm not asking her to become my best friend and come hang out everyday evening I get home from work. I'm not asking for a phone call everyday. But since its been over month since my last two attempts to call her with voicemails included, and she sends me a message on facebook because she just happened to see me online. I mean, if a simple 2 minute return phone call is too much. Now, if she had mentioned to me that her phone was lost, stolen, then I wouldn't have blown up about it. But I don't know that. If that's the case then she would have lost my number. But I know she hasn't. She has it logged into her phones address book.

I do want to say one more thing. I know a lot of these things seem strange for a guy to complain about. I can't stand it either. These little things frustrate me, and I get more frustrated for being frustrated at the little things. It sucks! But I can't help noticing it because its something that I keep failing at in my daily life. There is something I'm not doing, or doing wrong, and I just don't know what it is. I am considering counseling again. I am reluctant too because my last 2 counselors weren't very helpful at all. Two very bad experiences. I did have a third that I saw and he was really good and did help on most things. The only problem is I've moved off and its very difficult for me to get back to see him on a regular basis. I don't know. It's still under consideration.

Hey Carl,

Yeah, I do analyze way too much. It comes with the personality... and with my job. But being a friend to others, is all I've ever done... its all I've ever tried to do.

Joe, I am going to suggest that the best approach is the direct approach. I think you should pick a friend that you know who is a guy. Ask him to approach a couple of the girls that you both know in common. Ask him to strike up a conversation with them that seems like he is concerned about you as a friend. It might go something like this:

I was talking to Joe the other day and he can't figure out what he is doing wrong. He has dated a few girls but the relationship fizzles after the first date. You have met him, what do you think his problem is? I would really like to help him. Be totally honest from a womans perpective and tell me is there something that you noticed that he should do or not do. What was your impression of him. I promise I won't tell him you told me any thing. I just think it would be good for him to know the truth because he really wants to improve his social life and make an effort to find a nice girl to date.

If your friend would do this for you, I can't think of any woman that wouldn't want to help. Be prepared that you might not like what you hear. Sometimes, when we can't figure something out it is because we are so unaware of what that something is that we are shocked when told what people think about us. That something could very well hurt your feelings and "try" to crush your ego. Don't let it. You obviousely are a very intelligent and nice person who is willing to make and effort. I am sure that effort will include accepting what is said and making the changes necessary. No one is perfect but the first step to perfection is finding where the flaws are.
Good Luck.

I agree with Jo, about getting feedback from others, via friends, but I thought that Joe Nathan said that he had already tried something like this. However, it may not have been so direct and to the point, so yes, I agree. Joe, get a male friend you trust to ask for feedback from some girls you know and ask for absolute truth, regardless of how negative the information might be. It could hurt, but probably the pain will be brief, as opposed to the prolonged ache you are feeling just now.

I'll go back now to your response to my comments:

OK ..
In this day and age, I don't think that it is discourteous to send an e-mail, instead of making a phone call.
For some girls it might feel a lot more comfortable because, even today, some girls might feel a bit awkward phoning a boy.

This girl, however, just saw that you were online and sent you an instant message. Otherwise she might not have responded at all.

The question is, should she have responded and why didn't she?

Well, OK, I get the common courtesy bit, and I've heard it from others, too, but, not everyone thinks that every telephone message left on their machine requires an acknowledgement.
I tend to acknowledge. My Mum will phone someone right back, as soon as possible. Another relative will just pick up the message and leave it at that, with no reason seen for a reply, unless a specific and important question has been asked.

Different people have different ways of dealing with things. Don't expect everyone else to live by your rules, or you will spend a lot of your time angry, frustrated and disappointed.

Another point here concerns expectations surrounding the telephone communication. If a girl feels that a boy wants to date her, or even hang out with her, and she is not interested in dating or hanging out, then she is unlikely to phone back. Some people feel that the boy should get the message anyway, others just don't like to say anything negative to people.

So, common courtesy or not, the message is there. It may be harsh but, while she doesn't mind an informal chat with you on facebook, and may even go out in a group that includes you, she doesn't want a one-to-one relationship with you, not even on the telephone. If she doesn't want to explain, then she doesn't have to explain, even if that feels somewhat rude to you ~ and maybe to others. I'm afraid that in boy/girl relationships that is how it often works.

I feel that you need to learn to pick up on body language, voice tone, unspoken messages, etc, because, if you are expecting people to phone back, who clearly don't want to, then you are not picking up on the unspoken messages. This means that you could be seeking relationships ~ both friendly and romantic ~ with unsuitable people. It may even mean that you are not picking up positive messages from those who might be interested. It's going to leave you feeling confused and miserable.

Do you completely disagree, that you may be expecting too much of others and imposing rigid rules on yourself and on them?

As for counsellors, I have had dealings with a few, either as a student or a client. Some are brilliant. Some do more harm than good.

The ones who do not help are the ones who tell you what to do; the ones who do help are the ones who help you to sort yourself out, so that you can decide for yourself what to do.

However, I think that, the best counsellor will not tell you what to do, but will not leave all the conclusion-drawing to you, either. It's the one who will actually give personal feedback of their own. Ie, in your case, a genuine response to what do you think it is about me that is pushing girls away??

So counselling might help ~ and I think that I would recommend it for you ~ but with the right counsellor.

I would also recommend visiting the library and getting some books on relationships, male/female differences, human behaviour, body language, etc. Desmond Morris has written some good ones. John Gray, has written some useful books on relationships.



So, if you irritate her, you expect her to call back, but if she irritates you, that's the end of the friendship as far as you are concerned?? Have I understood that correctly?

I'm intrigued by how you go from gentleman to 'jerk' in one evening ~ how does this work?

What sort of teasing do you do?
Does any woman enjoy 'playful poking'?
Would the one or two compliments be genuine?
What might you say as a compliment?
What might you say as 'teasing'?
How might you end the evening?
What does the girl usually say, in response to your politeness / teasing / prodding / etc?

How long would you have known the girl?
How might you have met?
How might you have reached the stage of going out with her ~ just the two of you?
Would you have gone out as a friendly twosome, or on a romantic date?

Any more relevant information?

I'll just add something here that I have put on a couple of other threads. If you are a polite gentleman, then I am guessing that it is advice that you won't need, but one young man on here had had no idea that it was important ~ it is personal cleanliness. Shower before going out. Clean hair, nails, ears, teeth, feet, etc. etc. Clean clothes ~ especially underwear, socks, shirt. A pleasant smelling, but not overpowering, cologne and deodorant/antiperspirant. Toothpaste & mouthwash. Smell nice and clean.

Whatever it is you are doing isn't working for you, so maybe we could help to analyse whatever that is, for you.

Good advice from Jo and PDM, Joe.

When people are not wanting the friendship level you desire, it is indeed a message of sorts. Either your expectations are too high and make people uncomfortable, or you, yourself, offend people.

The fact-finding (if a friend or acquaintance will do that for you) is a good idea. Be prepared to think upon the things you discover, however, and begin to take small steps to change.

You won't need to change who you are - inside, but you may need to change how you interact with people, and how you treat people.

And maybe - just maybe - how you treat people reflects how you think about yourself.

That is why counseling may be appropriate. And the counselor may want to suggest group dynamics, such as role playing. In role playing, you can have feedback about what your message to others actually is interpreted to be. You, like many others, may be quite surprised.

Now, to be blunt, you can complain about others not doing right by you, or you can take some of the excellent suggestions here.

Yes, I think that this is very true.
We don't always mean things the way that they are picked up.