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Pudgie's mom
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On the forum list, Lisa Shea's words regarding this topic are: "Sometimes having a 'romantic' relationship can affect your relationships with family and friends."

In my case, the issue is more or less the reverse --- some family relationships are affecting my marriage, quite badly; in particular, it's my husband's son ("Sonny") and his wife that are an endless thorn in my side and an endless source of conflict for hubby and me.

I've had two disturbing realizations lately that are depressing me: (1) I don't want to spend the rest of my life arguing with hubby about Sonny's bad behavior and how it will not, so help me, negatively impact me any more; (2) Sonny's bad behavior and hubby's acceptance (and even defense) of it are never, ever going to end.

So my question for anyone who has advice about this is: How do I know where/when to give up? When is enough enough?

The only way to never have to deal with horrid Sonny is to divorce my husband; I do not want this to happen, but I simply cannot tolerate one more second of stress, conflict, and the sense of impending doom.

If we stay together, then we have to reach an "agree to disagree" point where hubby can have whatever relationship he wants with Sonny but it can not impact me. How to get to that point, I don't know. (An example would be if Sonny and his Enabler Wife split up, and Sonny thinks he can live with us for awhile or asks us for money--- either of these are completely out of the question, for me -- been there, done that, been bit in the butt for our efforts.

I am looking for a family counselor, in the hope that maybe a professional can give hubby & me ideas for negotiating a peaceful treaty. My not-so-hidden agenda, too, is that he/she could get hubby to realize that it is unfair to let his son victimize his spouse, and that sometimes confrontation is inevitable.

For my part, I simply don't understand why hubby can't just draw the line with Sonny; it seems like either cowardice or fear of emotional blackmail (if he criticizes Sonny he'll never get to see granddaughter again?).

Thanks for listening & I look forward to advice... I am so tired, tired, tired of this mess & it occurs to me that there may be plenty of good ideas "out there" that I'm just too fried to think of...




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Hi Pudgie's Mom.

I think that they were my words, actually, but that's just by the by. smile

I am not in your situation, so I can't help in that respect, but maybe, as an outsider, I can give some objective comments.

Also, I think that many of us will have been in a situation, where a relative or friend of a loved-one is causing us difficulty in some area.

It's a well known thing that step-families can have problems. It doesn't always happen ~ sometimes these relationships can be very successful ~ but there are many that don't work so well. I think that anyone in such a situation should, perhaps, be prepared for some problems.

Also, of course, there can be generational problems in any family.
And then there is the 'in-law' aspect. Mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law often don'r get on.
Maybe problems are exacerbated, where there is a step-relationship, too.

From your husband's point of view, I should imagine that, when he re-married, he may have promised himself, and his kids, that, no matter what happened, the new situation would not come between him and his kids.

From the son's point of view, there may be some kind of Cinderella complex. Daddy has a new wife. Maybe he loves her better than our Mummy. Maybe we'll be pushed out. Maybe we'll have to battle for his affections and try to overcome the new lady. And, the thing is, these sorts of thoughts remain. This can happen no matter what age the 'child'.

If this is the case, then he needs to confront the demons of his inner child ~ will Daddy still love him?; is the new lady usurping his mother's place?

He may feel that he has to remain faithful to his mother, and not betray her, by being nice to the stepmother ~ no matter how good and decent she may be, etc, etc.

This puts the father in a difficult position, because one's child is always one's baby, who one wants to protect ~ especially, if the child has been through trauma.

I think that you need to try to be as objective as possible, if you are to understand and work through this situation. This could be difficult, because you are in a very emotional personal situation.

But just try imagining what it must have felt like for your stepson to lose the security of the family he had and to have 'a new mommy' ~ and, again, I don't know how old he was at the time, but, I think that the inner child will still battle to keep the security of his own Mummy & Daddy, even as he grows older.

If you can try to empathise with how he may have felt, and realise that he may not even be able to help his feelings ~ because they could be instinctive ~ then you may be able to find a way to move on.

Your 'arguing with hubby about Sonny's bad behavior' is probably not the way. It is just adding to the negativity.

Perhaps, when you are both feeling calm and relaxed, you could have an objective discussion about it???

I think that it needs again to be a matter of empathy:

First, I hope that you will agree, you need to acknowledge, to each other, that you love each other and that you want to remain together and sort this out.

Then, you both need to acknowledge that you are a unit & must behave as one, and not let others come between you.

You need to acknowledge, to him, that you understand that the son has rejected you, and that this may be because he feels that you are an intruder into the family; that, while you know that he is now a grown man with a wife and child, he may still retain these childhood feelings.

Further, you could state that you understand that he does not want to lose his son, or his son's love, or contact with his grand-daughter ~ and that you would not want him to.

However, he must understand that, as you are his wife, you deserve his respect and support and that he must accept that there is bad feeling between him and you and that this is not pleasant for you and makes you feel like an outsider, who does not have her husband's support.

He must understand that it was his decision to be your husband, and, as such, he is your partner partner, and he needs to try to understand your hurt feelings.

You need to acknowledge that you understand that he will not wish to fall out with his son, but he should at least acknowledge, to you, that he is being rude and unpleasant and it would be appreciated if he could have a word with him about it ~ respecting the woman he loves, etc.

You could tell him that you do not want any more arguments about it, as it is tearing your marriage apart, but neither do you want any more dealings with the son and his family, if he is going to make life miserable for you.

Perhaps you can then work out a way of dealing with this, where your husband sees him at certain times, while you visit friends and relatives.

I agree that family counselling would be a really good idea, because it will help you all to see this objectively.
Then you can start to work on the situation.

These are just my thoughts, and some ideas, which came to me as I read your post. I don't know your family, or the situation, so I may not be helping much.

Often, just writing things down helps to allow your mind to sort out some ideas ~ have you had any thoughts, yourself, on what you could do?

Good luck! smile

PS.
If you feel that raising the issue in conversation might just start another argument, then you could put it in a letter for him to read ~ and explain that you need him to know how you feel; you want to understand how he feels, and you want to sort it out amicably.


Last edited by PDM; 10/03/08 10:10 PM.

"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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Pudgie's mom
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Thank you for all the ideas and perspective, PDM!

In particular, your point about the son feeling that I was/am an intruder is making me think more about that issue. Sonny was 7 when his parents divorced, and 19 when I first starting seeing his father. The three of us all lived together shortly afterward, until (after 6 years of conflict) Sonny moved into his mother's house (who tossed him out within six months). So even if Sonny doesn't perceive me as an intruder with regard to his mother, he certainly saw me, after a year or so, as an intruder with regard to his father. (Sonny essentially got away scot-free with everything imaginable, when it was just him and his father in the house, but along come I, asking about things like chores or paying rent and other normal expectations for a 21-year old.))

Originally Posted By: PDM
...you both need to acknowledge that you are a unit & must behave as one, and not let others come between you.

Further, you could state that you understand that he does not want to lose his son, or his son's love, or contact with his grand-daughter ~ and that you would not want him to.

However, he must understand that, as you are his wife, you deserve his respect and support and that he must accept that there is bad feeling between him and you and that this is not pleasant for you and makes you feel like an outsider, who does not have her husband's support.

He must understand that it was his decision to be your husband, and, as such, he is your partner partner, and he needs to try to understand your hurt feelings.

You need to acknowledge that you understand that he will not wish to fall out with his son, but he should at least acknowledge, to you, that he is being rude and unpleasant and it would be appreciated if he could have a word with him about it ~ respecting the woman he loves, etc.

You could tell him that you do not want any more arguments about it, as it is tearing your marriage apart, but neither do you want any more dealings with the son and his family, if he is going to make life miserable for you.


Those are all great suggestions, and I really like the calm tone of your wording. Unfortunately, I have tried them all with hubby, to no avail, although I may try again when I feel calm and "centered" and less emotional... Hubby's response is usually a nod, an agreement, and then a complete change of subject. Occasionally he is in complete denial of certain incidents; at other times he makes excuses for Sonny that are patently ridiculous, and I feel some respect for him slipping away.

The situation has become so toxic, and the only thing I know to do, with toxic people, is to avoid them, but Sonny is like guillotine constantly hanging over me...

I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too much talking it out, or maybe that's just a personal flaw of mine. I'm thinking that actions speak louder than words but I don't have anything concrete in mind...

I am trying to get myself to a zen-like state (lol) with regard to Sonny -- not reacting emotionally, refusing to let his behavior upset me, etc. We'll see...

Thanks for the feedback!

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Perhaps the counselling will help ~ if you can arrange that.

Is it not possible for your husband to have a relationship with his son, but for you to be elsewhere at the time?

Good luck, anyway!


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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Pudgie's mom
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Thank you.

To clarify, I rarely am in the same place with Sonny & loony daughter-in-law; hubby usually visits them at their house.

It's more the indirect impact they have, and may have in the future, that makes me angry/fearful/hurt. I do feel like the outsider in my own marriage sometimes, and I would definitely be the outsider if it came down to Sonny moving back into this house or "borrowing" large sums of money.

A pressing issue currently is that I'm planning hubby's Big Six-Oh birthday party. I'll be darned if I'll invite Sonny and d.-in-law, but hubby would be permanently angry with me if I didn't... Hubby has never even slightly reprimanded them for any of their behavior, but he would "read me the riot act" for cutting them out of a family party that I host.

Sorry -- ranting again... Just tired of being painted into a corner as "the bad guy" in the situation, while the people who endlessly make bad choices and start all the drama are never criticized & never suffer any negative consequences...


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Yes, I fear that not inviting them would cause even more problems for you.

Would there be plenty of your friends and relatives at the party?
Would it be possible to just stay away from them and chat t people you get on with?

I know it wouldn't be much fun for you, but it might be an answer.

Couldn't you arrange a special event for you and your husband ~ as well or instead ~ like a romantic weekend away, perhaps?


"The secret of success is constancy to purpose" - Benjamin Disraeli.
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Pudgie's mom
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Originally Posted By: PDM
Couldn't you arrange a special event for you and your husband ~ as well or instead ~ like a romantic weekend away, perhaps?
That is a really great idea! I shall give this some thought... Thanks!

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Hi, I can really empathize with your situation. I was married years ago to a man and my step daughter was the disturbing influence in the relationship. You have gotten some really wonderful advice from PDM. I have some personal experiences I can share that may help. Years ago My ex husband had a very good friend who came to live with us. I didn't have problems with it at first. He seemed like a nice enough guy. Over a period of weeks and months this friend started to get confrontational. If I said one thing he said the opposite. He kept his room filthy and I was expected to clean up after this guy. I finally got fed up and started to complain to my husband about his friend arguing about everything. My husband and I argued occasionally ourselves and so he was not sympathetic to my complaints. On the contrary, he took the friends side and this hurt my feelings. I felt as if my husband should have understood my feelings. I got angry and swore I would not say another word or get goaded into an argument with the friend if my life depended on it. Every time I said something and the friend took the opposing point of view I would just stay quiet and not comment. We were sitting around watching TV one night and this happened about five times. A day or so later, my husband came to me and apologized and said he saw what I was talking about. He realized that his friend was doing exactly what I had said. That showed me something very important about human behavior. When you are complaining to someone about someone they care about, it is common for a person to defend the person they care about because they identify with that person. Because you are complaining and attacking you become viewed as the offending party. When you let the situation speak for itself it becomes much clearer to see. There is not the distraction of your complaints and arguing to stand in the way of seeing exactly what the other person is doing. Only their bad behavior is center stage.

During the period of time your step son lived with you, you and he formed a confrontational relationship. He may be doing things purposely or he may be careless of your feelings. I don't know if you could both establish a different relationship at this point. You probably both have too much mutual dislike to change things now. That unfortunately puts your husband in the middle.I am sure that he would prefer things to be different. He seems to be trying to avoid conflict by visiting at his son's home. You feel like a stranger and an outsider and I am sure he feels somewhat the same if he has to go elsewhere to enjoy the company of his son. You probably would be happier if he would at least acknowledge your right to feel the way you do. That is called validation. Even if he doesn't feel he can do everything he should to make you happy. Validating your feelings would go a long ways toward you feeling as if his loyalty was still with you.
I will be honest though. I have been where you are and it is so hard to keep from complaining about the behavior. This only serves to put him more in the middle and make him feel as if he has to choose between you or his son. I am sure there are times when he wishes that you would understand how this must be tearing him in two.
I don't know if you have tried to make peace and deal with the strife between Sonny and you but after all, it is between Sonny and you. Perhaps being straight forward about the problem with him might be an answer. It doesn't have to be a confrontation. I would not mention the tension it causes between your husband and you. If Sonny is trying to cause trouble in that way, he doesn't need to know it is successful. Perhaps it would clear the air to let him know that you want to have a better relationship with him and his family. You probably don't want it on the surface. From what you have said, you would probably be happy if you didn't ever have to deal with him at all. The truth of the matter is, that you do have to deal with him. He is a huge part of your husbands life and your husband is the other half of yours. It isn't practical to avoid them. You will have Christmas and Thanksgiving and other holidays where there will always be the tension of how to handle getting together. He may feel about you the way PDM suggested. It may also be that you both have gotten caught up in treating each other badly. I am sure you have tried to be fair and treat him correctly. I am also sure that he can tell how you feel about him now. You both don't have to become best friends but you can both agree to treat each other civily and with respect for the sake of the people you love in common. I am sure that you have been doing this all along and that he has been the source of the problems. Now it has become something that is going to take effort on both of your parts. Unfortunately it is going to probably be harder for you. You are the person that has been offended. Sometimes the peacemaker has to be the bigger person. You have more to gain if it is successful and more to loose if it is not. It will only get worse if you don't resolve things. You will only grow more bitter and hurt and resentful toward your husband. You could let Sonny's actions speak for themselves, but maybe your husband doesn't know how to discipline him without loosing contact with his grandchild. It is what it is. He probably feels helpless and when he defends Sonny it is his way of exonerating his own actions. I am sure he will love you all the more for trying to find a solution that is livable for everyone.

Even if your heart is not totaly in it, you would be surprised how people react when they think that you care enough to try and resolve a bad relationship. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he reacted positively and that was enough to make him treat you with respect.



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That sounds like very good advice, Jo.

Yes, perhaps, talking things over with the son, about how best to make his father happy, might be a very good idea.

Have you tried anything like this, Pudgie's mom?


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I appreciate all this great advice.

I don't think I explained enough, though, or perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have. I did initiate discussions, several years ago, and Sonny is completely "clueless" -- doesn't even seem to understand what the issues are! He has absolved himself of all responsibility, and hubby has unwittingly contributed to that...

The other problem is that recently, at 37 years old, he went into the army, against the advice of everyone except his wife who shrugged her shoulders, in spite of having a 3-year old daughter, the larger issues of an unethical war, etc.

He was out after two months with a medical discharge, but nonetheless his decision was absolutely wrong for every imaginable reason. If he were my kid, I would have disowned him -- seriously.

My point is that his enlistment was, to me, the very last straw, and is categorically unforgivable and unacceptable.

So --- if we were talking about a few minor incidents, or an 18-year old kid, then I would consider trying to mend fences.

As the saying goes, you can't change someone else, you can only change your own choices.

This whole thing (esp. forum members' feedback) has been helpful, particularly in the sense of realizing that I'm even beyond anger with regard to Sonny; my real issues are with hubby. If there is no possibility of Sonny & wife getting along respectfully with me, then my focus must be on my marriage, and to an extent on protecting myself. I've tried "peacemaker," I've tried "doormat," so let's see how "calm maintainer of boundaries" goes!

I truly do appreciate the ideas you folks have posted, and I will continue to give all of this tremendous thought...

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