RomanceClass.com Forums Romance Non-Romance Relationships: Friends Relatives Etc. marriage strained by relatives

Your step son sounds like an idiot. That said, it is not your place to criticize him as that won't get you anywhere with your husband. You'll unfortunately have to come to terms with the fact that your step son and his wife will continue to make poor decisions (at least ones that you don't agree with) all their lives. It is their life not yours. So, if they want to be stupid with it, you'll have to let them be. Since they're 37, it is unlikely things will improve dramatically.

Is there away that you and your husband can agree to not enable his step son's bad decisions? That way, you (and hopefully, your husband) won't get dragged in.

Yes, it is very much their life not mine, and that's fine until it has a negative impact on hubby and therefore on me (or directly on me, which I am trying to stop).

(Stepson is profoundly self-centered -- is that a type of narcissism? lol)

Trying to not enable him is the very tip of the sword, or the most crucial bone of contention. Hubby just cannot (99% of the time) step up and say "no" to Sonny...

You need to work w/ your hubby as to which bad behaviors you two will not enable. Money is always the first (and best) place to start.

I bought a magazine, yesterday, and one article reminded me of this thread. It was based on some American research. It may be useful to you.

Here's a quote ~ from the article and the book:



The censored word starts with 'b' and means 'nasty woman' ~ in case you were wondering.

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Neg...4691&sr=8-3

I would also recommend having a look at the 'Venus and Mars' books. I think that they are very good for helping to understand the difference between male & female psyches ~ and how understanding and misunderstanding can happen. They are probably available at the library.

You can listen to a talk at the website, as well.

http://home.marsvenus.com/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Mars-Women-V...6311&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mars-Venus-Colli...6311&sr=8-3

You did not go into detail about his behavior or that you had tried to speak with him. I am a little puzzled about your example and your description of how it is "the last straw and unforgivable". How does making a decision about joining the service equate with unforgivable behavior in your eyes? I believe you are using this as an example of "self centered behavior" however if his very action somehow affected the relationship you personally have with him, I am confused. At 37 years old, the best we can hope is that our children treat us with respect due a parent but that does not extend to actually "taking" the advice we give them. Most of the time we are lucky if they listen. Frankly, as good as our advice might seem, they in fact show character if they listen and then factor that advice into their decisions but do not follow it word for word. You mentioned that your real problem is with your husband, however, he also has the right to decide how he wants to handle his son. He also has the responsibility to show you that he respects your feelings. If he does not agree with you on how that is done, then working out a compromise that addresses the most important issues is the way that is done. Those issues should be what you can both live with. Talking with your husband so that you both understand what is most important to each of you is important. His son is a grown man and has a life of his own. Your relationship with your husband and the mutual respect you have for each other's position and feelings are what directly impact your lives. If you go to counseling, they will not play referee. They will tell you that no one is right or wrong. There is only a "right way". Figuring out a solution that you can both live with is what they do. It sounds like stepping back is what you are considering and I think you are on the right track but dissasociating yourself from the son entirely will not bring you happiness. Sometimes a situation becomes so entangled and convuluted that we become so frustrated that we loose site of just exactly what will resolve it and make us happy. Sometimes we have to get help to enable us to see what the basic issues really are. I think it is probably important to you to know your husband's loyalties are with you. He on the other hand may feel there are issues you need to accept. You can both still enjoy your grandchild and a family relationship as long as everyone can agree on how that relationship is defined.

It can be difficult I think, to accept that, when you marry an individual, you are, to a degree, marrying a family. And you are never going to get on 100% well with every member of that family.

The one person you can usually vent to, in private, is your spouse ~ but if you are criticising the spouse's family, that's not going to be very helpful. It's a difficult one.

With regard to joining the army, I too found this to be an surprising example. At 37, he can fo whatever he wishes. He's married and his wife supported him,. That's the end of the matter as far as I, from an objective viewpoint, see the matter.

True, to join up when one has a little child is something that I, personally, would be concerned about. And I could see that the worry would be very stressful to his father. But that's life. He is an adult and free to make such choices. Others make similar choices. You and I may agree that it was an unethical war, but plenty of people supported it. He has the right to do so, surely?

I wonder ~ is it just possible that he responds as a kid, because he is treated like a kid?

I'm not quite sure why you say:
"If he were my kid, I would have disowned him ... his enlistment was .. the very last straw, and is categorically unforgivable and unacceptable."

I can understand you feeling that it was a bad choice, in your opinion, but isn't this just your personal opinion, which he doesn't share ~ and doesn't have to share?

Is it possible that the relationship has broken down so badly that anything he does seems wrong to you and anything you do seems wrong to him?

I'm not trying to apportion blame, just trying to disentangle the threads.

What would you like Hubby to say 'no' to, exactly?

I would like hubby to make it clear to sonny that there are serious, long-term consequences to his behavior: "No" he cannot move into our house if he wrecks his marriage, "no" we will not give him money because he's too lazy to get a job, "no" we will not endlessly bail him out of his troubles or make excuses for him to the rest of the family...

Suppose your cousin became a rapist; would you continue to invite him/her over to your house, once they got out of prison? If your best friend joined some horrid club that runs around beating up gay people, wouldn't you stop speaking to him/her and cut him/her out of your life?

I don't expect hubby to ever cut sonny out of his life, but I do expect him to stand up, speak up, and do the right thing, with regard to his wife (me) as well as larger ethical considerations (evidently he joined the army to get specific job training, not caring that he was supporting Bush/Cheney's oil war).

Sonny does not have to share my opinions, but he does have to recognize that there are consequences to offending people (for example, I do not invite into my home or offer hospitality to those who are pro-war any more than I would tolerate Ku Klux Klan members or Nazis!).

The basic issue is that if hubby wishes to be a doormat or enabler or fool for his son, fine, but he does not have a right to impose those roles onto me.

Sometimes in life it really does come down to "black & white," right and wrong. Refusing to confront or set boundaries with sonny when he is rude, inappropriate, unethical, taking advantage, etc. to me is just plain wrong. It places sonny's every little selfish demand above my basic needs (respect, sense of security, etc.).

I will give this more thought and return when I can...

[With regard to the "hard-edged negotiation style" -- I have, over the years, tried every negotiation style imaginable. At this point, I am trying to be clear (in my head) about the line between hard-edged and assertive/firm-but-fair. On some sort of instinctive level, I need to be sure that I am protecting myself as well as the marriage, whereas I used to focus exclusively on what was healthiest for the marriage. Maybe I'm just burnt-out...]

You seem to be feeling sad, angry and confused as to why you and your feelings are not being given enough, or any, consideration.

It sounds as if your husband may feel that he is stuck in the middle of a very difficult situation, not knowing how best to move forward, so doing very little at all about it.

The 'wicked stepmother' scenario is not an unusual one ~ hence all the fairy tales. It's not that the stepmother is really wicked, necessarily, it's just that she is a step-mother. And if step-children think that they are being pushed out, they may push harder to prove ~ even if unconsciously ~ that they are still the apple of their father's eye, and that the new wife is an outsider. This could be happening here.

It sounds like things have become so bad that only counselling will help.

I do think, though, that you need to pick your battles carefully on this one.

It does sound to me as if the son is still taking the role of the child, even though he is a married father. This may go back to emotions surrounding his mother. It may be to do with the way that he is treated now.

'"No" he cannot move into our house if he wrecks his marriage,
"no" we will not give him money because he's too lazy to get a job,
"no" we will not endlessly bail him out of his troubles
or make excuses for him to the rest of the family...'

These sound like reasonable expectations. On the other hand, many parents help out their family in times of financial difficulty or marital breakdown ~ flexibility is probably key here.

Has he wrecked a marriage? ~ The way you describe him & his wife sounded like a joint front, so have I got the wrong impression?

Does he not have a job? ~ Is he not in the army now?

How often do you need to bail him out of troubles? ~ What sort of troubles?

Is he not popular with the rest of the family? ~ Who has he offended?

I'm guessing that many people join the forces for the training opportunities. If he needs a job and money, then this is a positive move, surely?

As for supporting the war, as I said, I was/am completely against it, but I wouldn't equate joining the army with being a racist, a rapist or a Nazi. Some bad things have been done by some soldiers, but joining the army is not illegal ~ and many would not consider it immoral, either. Many would consider it a very noble thing to do. One cannot place one's own ideologies onto others.

As for criminal relatives, though some families would expel them from their lives, others would say that they hate the crime, but still love the individual. If it were me, personally, it would depend on the whole situation; the person, my relationship with them, their background, the crime, etc.

What exactly do step-son & daughter-in-law do that is deliberately rude and offensive to you?
Maybe, with a few specifics, it would be easier to contemplate the situation.

From what you say, it sounds as if you have tried hard to make this work, but can you think of anything that you might have done, yourself, to aggravate your step-son?

If this couple were to come on here, and give their side of the story, what do you think they might say?

If your husband were to come on here, and give his side of the story, what do you think he might say?

If you were an objective observer, do you think you would see things the same or differently?

And how is the little girl coping with all this strife?

Interesting.....

Well, when hubby spends time with his granddaughter, he says she seems fine -- a bit spoiled, but fine! ("She doesn't like the word 'no'" ---??)

With regard to the ideologies issue: in a sense, anyone protesting the war is pushing his/her ideology onto others. Each person has the right to make choices about war, military service, etc.,of course, but the rest of us have a right to say, "I disagree -- strongly."

When Sonny made the choice to enlist, he has to expect negative feedback (from hubby & relatives), just as I have to expect negative comments from some passersby when I participate in an anti-war march.

But no, hubby and other passive relations just sort of put on sickly smiles and shrug their shoulders (but then rant and rave about Sonny when he's out of earshot).

My opinion is that they could sit down with Sonny and try to have a dialogue, at least, about why it was a bad choice and how he might prevent making bad choices in the future. I don't know -- is parenting ever "done," or should parents continue to play a guiding or leading role?

On one level, I suppose I have reached a point where I don't honestly care anymore what choices Sonny makes, as long as they don't impact hubby and me. That is cold and probably naive, but I've really truly had it with this situation...

On a more constructive level: Sorry this is so long, but the following is both a specific example of Sonny's actions and a point about parenting methods ---

Years ago I found a book called When Your Adult Child Won't Grow Up; it was co-written by a psychologist and an advocate of the "Tough Love" approach. There were case histories in the book that were 95% parallel to Sonny's but hubby just wouldn't see the similarities, or on some level simply refused to alter his parenting strategy, failing though it was...

The Tough Love approach could be destructive if used unfairly, but the basic premise is "love the kid, but say 'no' to unhealthy enabling of kid's bad choices -- not fair to kid & not fair to you." (I think it might have begun as a technique to help parents of drug-addicted kids.)

An example from the book & real life: Kid in mid-twenties has frequent car problems, largely due to fact that he never checks oil, trans fluids, tire pressure; has been told repeatedly to take responsibility for preventing car crises (and be sure to save money for repairs & towing); several times a year kid comes to dad and asks for money for car repairs or entirely new car because he ran old one out of oil & engine seized.

The tough love people recommend that dad sit kid down and say (a) we have an unhealthy, unproductive pattern here, (b) you're not grasping the idea of taking responsibility, and I'm partly to blame for that because I keep bailing you out, (c) I love you and want you to be a happy & successful adult who can cope with difficulties, (d) I am choosing to not rescue you from car crises any more -- that is my policy.

Of course the kid will come to dad shortly afterward, asking for money for the car, and the dad should express sympathy ("I'm sure it will be difficult finding alternative transportation to work, & saving up to get your car fixed") but not hand over money.

Kid will throw tantrum, and say hurtful things, but dad has to take deep breaths, support kid emotionally, and reiterate his policy & "hang tough" on the decision.

This is certainly not easy for parents, no doubt, but the goal is to let kid make choices and handle outcomes of choices. It also serves to protect dad's finances!

This whole approach makes perfect sense to me, and regardless of what trendy label one applies, it's what was called ("back in the day") the grow up! parenting approach!!

I didn't list specific Sonny behaviors earlier because I was trying to keep my posts down to a dull roar, length-wise, but I see that they would offer perspective, so here goes:

When we all lived in same house (he was 22-27)-----
-When hubby & I were out, he and friends smoked in house (dad is rabidly anti-smoking)
-" " " " " " , had friends over who had sex in our bed
-" " " " " ", had loud parties which neighbors complained about; continued to do so after being told "no parties!"

-lost job after job because he just didn't show up for days at a time

-paid rent a total of one month

-didn't complete his one chore/responsibility; we had meeting after meeting, re: want a different chore? but rarely ever completed the one thing asked of him

-regularly flooded bathroom floor when showering & won't mop up

-refused to make sure there was bread, milk, toilet tissue, etc. left for other people - used up whatever he wanted and didn't replace or help with any shopping

-had gang-banger friends in house and garage

-repeatedly left garage door unlocked when he left; garage got robbed

-when his one responsibility was to wash dishes, he refused for four days at a stretch, and repeated that several times -- kitchen was covered with filthy dishes on a regular basis

-when I lost my temper and told him that the dishes must be washed today, darn it, I came home from work to find them all piled up on my side of bed

After he moved out:
-lived with mother briefly and broke every rule of her house within two weeks -- parties, smoking, etc.

-called (about an hour before niece's wedding) to ask dad to drive an hour out of his way to bring him dress clothes (in closet at our house) for wedding; I said, "No way -- he can go to store & buy new or go in slob clothes -- I can't drop everything & rush to make his newly-imposed deadline, & he should have thought of this earlier" but dad said, "Sure, Sonny" -- we have terrible argument & I skip wedding

-takes 17-yr. old girl for ride on his motorcycle, has accident, and has let insurance policy lapse; girl's parents' insurance covers her medical bills and they don't sue Sonny; accident was caused by his failure to do basic maintenance on bike (which he had been taught since childhood)

-calls dad about going into army; dad asks what mother thinks about the idea; Sonny says, "She's all for it!" which turns out to be an outright lie.

-Sonny announces that he's joined the army; after I spend a day picking up the pieces of devastated dad/hubby, and trying to console Sonny's mother, I get idiotic e-mail from daughter-in-law re: "Isn't this swell? Let's all throw a going-away dinner for Sonny!" I "snap" and send reply re: "this is a catastrophic decision -- everyone's freaking out -- he lied -- he's pulled some stunts in the past but this really takes the cake -- sure we can all have a lovely dinner, if you call grown adults sobbing into their dinner napkins a lovely time..." D.-in-L. then calls hubby's cell phone to complain about me! "Something has to be done about Paula - she said awful things about Sonny!" She also decides not to invite me to granddaughter's 4th birthday party...

-at hubby's family bridal shower (all women), D.-in-L shows up with Sonny, who procedes to sit down and chow down. Five of hubby's relatives, one by one, pull me aside to ask why on earth Sonny is here; I am as stunned as they and say, "I have no idea," and eventually resent that they are asking me instead of Sonny or D.-in-L.......

If any hardy souls are still reading, please accept my gratitude! Thanks for "listening" ----